I should have known better than to join any of the new RWA loops. I thought they were basically worthless in their old incarnation — just the same six people posting on the same six topics. Out of curiousity, why did we all have to change? Different spellings? The new loops have been active for — what, a week? — and have already descended into the usual flamewars wherein some writers published with small or electronic publishers *not* recognized by RWA present their *tragic* situation as if
a) all e-publishers are shunned by RWA (not true) and RWA is “behind the times” in not recognizing their publisher.
b) all people who want to publish with a large, RWA-recognized publisher are directly insulting them and their decision to publish with smaller ones and
c) (this is the new one that shocked the hell out of me) there is some sort of conspiracy between Ellora’s Cave and RWA that allows EC to be recognized and no other epub. WTF????
One writer insisted that because she was not allowed in PAN, the most she could get out of RWA was beginning info about how to write a query letter, no advanced writer advice, promotional or contract tutelage. Um, excuse me? What RWA is she a member of? I’m not PAN, but that info is readily available both in the monthly RWR, in regular online workshops sponsored by RWA or at their yearly conferences. The folks I know in PAN tell me I’m not missing a thing on that loop.
Can we get one thing straight here? RWA is not in the business of keeping writers down. They have standards *because* they want their members making money. They are not keeping information from you. And publishers could care less whether or not your publisher is “recognized” by RWA. The fact that your publisher is not recognized is not ruining your rep. They pull some stupid shit (for instance, not reconizing as a “novel” a book that the publisher is calling such becauase it’s a few thousand short of the minimum-required word count), but what organization doesn’t? If your publisher is not recognized by RWA, it is for one of two reasons:
1) Your publisher hasn’t bothered to apply. (And, sheesh, if you want them in just ask them!)
2) Your publisher isn’t selling the highly minimal requirements to achieve recognition.
And once again, the big publishers don’t care. They want a great story and a proven selling track record. If they don’t have one, they’ll settle for the other. They’d prefer both.
Me, I want a contract with a big print publisher that has a proven track record for getting books into stores. But I know there are many ways to achieve that goal. Sell straight to the big pubs, work your way up with short stories, novellas and novels to small pubs, magazines and electronic pubs that are well-received and sell lots of copies or win a bunch of contests that improve your chances of getting noticed by the big guys (or even get a contract, like with American Title. Each way is perfectly valid — and NONE is better than another! The end goal is the same, if the path is different. To make a living selling books.
If you’re getting closer with each pass, each submission, each small sale, each contest win, then you’re getting it done. If you’re making a living selling your books, then you’re getting it done. (And if you’re making a living, then your publisher should DEFINITELY be recognized.)
Re: self-publishing. I admire people who self-publish and have the wherewithal to find good cover art, distribution, etc. Honestly, you people are my heroes. I know that wouldn’t be me. Furthermore, if you’re making good with your self or small-pubbed work, I can almost guarantee that the big pubs are interested.
Alternately, if you’re just looking to sell a book and don’t care how much money you make or how many other people read it, then go ahead and publish however the heck you like. But don’t get defensive with RWA for setting standards. They’re doing it for your ultimate benefit.
March 20th, 2005 at 2:14 pm
Just to throw this out there, and keep in mind I do belong to RWA, but not to a chapter, nor do I go on any of the loops.
I consider myself a published author. I have over a dozen short stories in print, (some of them with a pretty BIG print publisher) and now have two novellas, and two more short stories with e_publishers that have proven sales.
However, NONE of my publishers are RWA recognized, and I am still considered Unpublished by them.
It’s annoying because there are somepeople that are condensending and, basically snotty, about it all. Personally, it’s not a big deal because I know I make more money than alot of “recognized” published authors, but I can see why others get defensive at times.
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March 20th, 2005 at 3:01 pm
Yes, but what they are really saying is “unpublished by an RWA-recognized publisher.” “Unpublished” is short for that. Would it be better if they said UBARRP, vs. PBARRP? Do you think that would stem the tide of malice?
I’ve had a weekly column in a newspaper with a circulation of over 120,000 for three years now, and I’ve made much more money on my writing than some people I know who have published books with RWA-recognized publishers. But they’ve published a romance novel with one of those publishers, I haven’t. If I had a New York Times Bestselling cookbook on the shelves, I wouldn’t expect to be considered “published” by an organization that deals with romance novels.
I don’t think it’s any big deal to make a publisher reach certain goals before putting them on the “approved” list. Personally, I’d rather be published by either of your publishers, Sasha, than a few of the ones on the “approved” list. You write for good, well-respected markets that either have an emormous market share and loyal following or are quickly building one through the continued quality of their releases.
I do find it amusing, though, that as soon as a publisher gets that stamp of approval, the submissions skyrocket. They’re the same publisher today as they were yesterday. (Quite honestly, I was less inclined to submit to EC when they first got recognition, because I wanted to enter the GH.) I feel the same way about those writers as I do about writers who all of a sudden respect your opinion the second you get The Call. You’re the same writer today as you were yesterday, witht eh same opinions and the same ideas, and those publishers give out the same contracts, and have the same reader base, and the same staff…
However, I don’t think the snottiness you’re talking of will change dependent on whether or not the publisher is recognized by RWA. I’ve seen writers put down other writers who have a Dorchester contract, and writers who slam EC writers, RWA-recognition or no, for writing “porn.” The snottiness is there, all right, but it isn’t solely based on publisher recognition.
Though I have seen some pretty glaring examples of that. A writer friend of mine published her book with a small Chcago-based press, which did wonderfully for her: she was interviewed by all the local newspapers and magazines, they arranged an in-city book tour, her novel was reviewed by PW, and got back cover quotes from all kinds of big names, including the author of the Time Traveler’s Wife. The rest of her RWA chapter shunned her, saying that it’s “not fair” that she got all this publicity since her publisher isn’t recognized by RWA. To me, that’s an example of head-in-the-sand stupidity. RWA recognition is not the be all and end all of publisher worth, and those who are resting on that are kidding themselves. It’s a good start, but it isn’t the only criteria, and it isn’t a dealbreaker. the same goes for RWA recognized agents, IMO.
If people decide my opinion isn’t worth anything because I’m not published, it’s their loss, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t associate with writers who put down other people because they aren’t published, or because their house isn’t good enough, or because it’s not recognized by RWA. Good writers with good industry info exist in all facets of this industry, and bad writers with bad industry info sometimes luck out and get huge contracts from big houses, but haven’t the foggiest idea of how it happened.
The biggest writer I know doesn’t give a shit what organization recognizes her publisher, or whether or not the people who give her advice are in PAN or not. She cares whether her publisher is making her money and getting her books into the hands of readers, and if the advice she gets is good. And that all there is to it.
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March 21st, 2005 at 12:37 am
I agree with all of your points. And I’m very happy with my publishers! *g*
However, I also don’t believe that RWA or PAN will ever help me get any further in my career than my own determination and instincts will. Sadly, I do think that maybe a silly acronym for PBARRP would make some of these authors feel better. But then they would just find somehting else to whine about, or another reason why they’re not getting where they want to be with their careers.
I do know there are other authors out there that aren’t upset about not being “recognised” as well…unfortunatly, it’s often the people that are bitching that get heard the most, while the rest of us are writing, and working at getting ahead.
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March 21st, 2005 at 3:52 am
This is why I have yet to join the RWA. I’m certain that the organization is worthwhile for other people, but belonging to an organization, belonging to the loops, going to a dozen conferences is not going to help me sell my manuscript. Yes there are lots of links to be made within the organization but the president of my chapter, the published author I know, the agent I’ve spoken to, the editor who’s skimmed a first chapter in a contest is not going to be there everyday, holding my hand as I type at the computer. It’s me, and if the negativity and uselessness that I’ve heard from people abounds in the organization, I’m well rid of it. Sure it makes me pause for a moment, wondering whether I’ll get snubbed because I didn’t take the route that most have(join the RWA, win a few contests, maybe win the GH and then sell, then win some RITA’s). But then I remember that this is my career and whether I belong to an organization or not won’t have any impact on my chances of selling, nor my future readers(the average reader has no idea what the hell a RWA or a RITA is anyways!).
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March 22nd, 2005 at 8:04 am
while the rest of us are writing
And I definitely advocate showing and not telling in this case *g*
Diana I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve gotten a LOT out of the contracts class, but those lists….
I think some writers, in general, are so insecure they have to have someone to look down on, or something to bitch about.
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