Comments on: villains http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/ Novelist, Dog-Lover, Bon Vivant Thu, 09 Feb 2012 01:48:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Anonymous http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-51 Anonymous Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:24:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-51 It depends on the story. I've done villains who were just plain evil--though even evil people need a motivation. Then I've done bad guys who turn out to be kinda pathetic because they truly believe they have no choice and if their life had been different they might never have gone down that terrible road and you could end up feeling sorry for them.<br /><br /><a HREF="http://www.blogger.com/r?http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suzannemcminn.com%2Fblog"> Suzanne </a> It depends on the story. I’ve done villains who were just plain evil–though even evil people need a motivation. Then I’ve done bad guys who turn out to be kinda pathetic because they truly believe they have no choice and if their life had been different they might never have gone down that terrible road and you could end up feeling sorry for them.

Suzanne

]]> By: Amie Stuart http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-50 Amie Stuart Tue, 01 Feb 2005 02:56:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-50 > Ooh, next blog topic: what's the difference? ;-)<br /><br />I'll be waiting LOL. I think the movie Mean Girls (I'm sick but I loved it. I've been on a teen girly movie kick lately) is a great example of just mean for reasons some of us might not get (vs evil and/or sick).<br /><br />And no I don't remember the Magic Mirror =( > Ooh, next blog topic: what’s the difference? ;-)

I’ll be waiting LOL. I think the movie Mean Girls (I’m sick but I loved it. I’ve been on a teen girly movie kick lately) is a great example of just mean for reasons some of us might not get (vs evil and/or sick).

And no I don’t remember the Magic Mirror =(

]]> By: Diana Peterfreund http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-49 Diana Peterfreund Tue, 01 Feb 2005 02:50:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-49 I know what you mean, Larissa. I usually feel the same way. I've written evil before (I had a child molester villain in one book) but -- is this too awful to say, that I can get in that head more easily? He had a sickness, a mental deficiency. I can see where his evil is coming from -- it's coming from a mind out of whack. What do you do with someone who is sane, but is completely motivated by her own shallow, self-involved and vindictive worldview? You can't say, okay, this is Hannibal Lector, he's a human monster. You have to say this chick, well, she's just a bitch.<br /><br />Cece, I love that quote by Vogler, and I *lived* by it when I was writing my action adventure. I have no doubt that Courtney (my villainess) is the heroine in her own story -- but it's kind of like, say, Wickham in Pride and Prejudice. He *has* a story, it just doesn't hold water. He's wrong.<br /><br />Jaye, this is where it gets interesting to me, like what Cece was saying about the Wicked Witch's sister. I like that you did get into her head and gave her some reason, if if it wasn't one your H&h were going to swallow. In my case, she and the hero had been a hot -- if shallow -- item, and she viewed his illness and subsequent personality change as a personal affront. She dumped him when he was sick. I don't think she was in love with him, but she was very much in love with the image she'd constructed of their lives together - lives which he didn't show any interest in resuming. I guess the point where i stop understanding her is when, a year later, she goes out of her way to make his life and the life of his new lover (heroine) miserable. I think it's ebleivable, becuase I know there are people who would do that, but I cannot get into that head. It's like -- GET OVER IT! (By the way, the other blogger was Lydia Joyce, who was talking about the beautiful=good, ugly=bad paradigm)<br /><br />Hey, Sasha! Thanks for dropping by. I love villains. they are my favorite parts of most books. You'll have a blast. My fave villain I've written to date is Annis (I named her after an old college roommate -- in thanks for helping me out with soem language issues). I adore jana, but she was more of a "nemesis" thana villain. Ooh, next blog topic: what's the difference? ;-)<br /><br />Do any of you guys remember an old Disney special from about 15 years ago hosted by "the Magic Mirror" talking about how it's villains that add color to a story? I'll see if I can dig that up. I know what you mean, Larissa. I usually feel the same way. I’ve written evil before (I had a child molester villain in one book) but — is this too awful to say, that I can get in that head more easily? He had a sickness, a mental deficiency. I can see where his evil is coming from — it’s coming from a mind out of whack. What do you do with someone who is sane, but is completely motivated by her own shallow, self-involved and vindictive worldview? You can’t say, okay, this is Hannibal Lector, he’s a human monster. You have to say this chick, well, she’s just a bitch.

Cece, I love that quote by Vogler, and I *lived* by it when I was writing my action adventure. I have no doubt that Courtney (my villainess) is the heroine in her own story — but it’s kind of like, say, Wickham in Pride and Prejudice. He *has* a story, it just doesn’t hold water. He’s wrong.

Jaye, this is where it gets interesting to me, like what Cece was saying about the Wicked Witch’s sister. I like that you did get into her head and gave her some reason, if if it wasn’t one your H&h were going to swallow. In my case, she and the hero had been a hot — if shallow — item, and she viewed his illness and subsequent personality change as a personal affront. She dumped him when he was sick. I don’t think she was in love with him, but she was very much in love with the image she’d constructed of their lives together – lives which he didn’t show any interest in resuming. I guess the point where i stop understanding her is when, a year later, she goes out of her way to make his life and the life of his new lover (heroine) miserable. I think it’s ebleivable, becuase I know there are people who would do that, but I cannot get into that head. It’s like — GET OVER IT! (By the way, the other blogger was Lydia Joyce, who was talking about the beautiful=good, ugly=bad paradigm)

Hey, Sasha! Thanks for dropping by. I love villains. they are my favorite parts of most books. You’ll have a blast. My fave villain I’ve written to date is Annis (I named her after an old college roommate — in thanks for helping me out with soem language issues). I adore jana, but she was more of a “nemesis” thana villain. Ooh, next blog topic: what’s the difference? ;-)

Do any of you guys remember an old Disney special from about 15 years ago hosted by “the Magic Mirror” talking about how it’s villains that add color to a story? I’ll see if I can dig that up.

]]> By: Sasha White http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-48 Sasha White Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:01:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-48 I haven't written a villian yet, but I have one for the upcoming ms..so I'm just soaking it all up! Great discussion you guys. I haven’t written a villian yet, but I have one for the upcoming ms..so I’m just soaking it all up! Great discussion you guys.

]]> By: Jaye http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-47 Jaye Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:16:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-47 Cece pointed me over here, Diana. I also have a eevil villianess, in ms#2. And she was categorically a beeyotch. gg. But I gave her one scene where the reader did see her vulnerability. That she did love the H, and was willing, at first to do anything to have him, then later, anything to give him his happiness. So while I think you can make your bad guy/girl completely over-the-top, you have to give that little 'in' that touches the reader, that makes them have a twinge of sympathy. I didn't follow your link--was it to Alison's blog on The Wire. I knew exactly what she meant about characterization, that's what I like to see, a bit of complexity. Cece pointed me over here, Diana. I also have a eevil villianess, in ms#2. And she was categorically a beeyotch. gg. But I gave her one scene where the reader did see her vulnerability. That she did love the H, and was willing, at first to do anything to have him, then later, anything to give him his happiness. So while I think you can make your bad guy/girl completely over-the-top, you have to give that little ‘in’ that touches the reader, that makes them have a twinge of sympathy. I didn’t follow your link–was it to Alison’s blog on The Wire. I knew exactly what she meant about characterization, that’s what I like to see, a bit of complexity.

]]> By: Amie Stuart http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-46 Amie Stuart Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:21:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-46 Wow! Very thought provoking post, Diana. I remember Vogler saying in TWJ that Villians are the heros (or in this case heroine) of their own story--something that really made me go hmm when I read it--so I think your Villianess can be whatever you need her to be. <br /><br />Unlike Larissa I don't need a reason, I need to be intrigued (Ie Norman Bates or Hannibal Lecter or the villians in the Alex Cross novels). But human nature and what drives us to act has alwasy fascinated me. So yeah I definitely think they can just "be bad" for lack of a better word. After all, even the Wicked Witch had a sister =) Wow! Very thought provoking post, Diana. I remember Vogler saying in TWJ that Villians are the heros (or in this case heroine) of their own story–something that really made me go hmm when I read it–so I think your Villianess can be whatever you need her to be.

Unlike Larissa I don’t need a reason, I need to be intrigued (Ie Norman Bates or Hannibal Lecter or the villians in the Alex Cross novels). But human nature and what drives us to act has alwasy fascinated me. So yeah I definitely think they can just “be bad” for lack of a better word. After all, even the Wicked Witch had a sister =)

]]> By: Larissa http://www.dianapeterfreund.com/villains/comment-page-1/#comment-45 Larissa Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:29:00 +0000 http://gator465.hostgator.com/~dianablu/villains/#comment-45 Villains. Hmm. Well, I don't mind really, really bad villians who are unredeemable, because they exist in real life. There ARE people who are beyond help. There ARE people who can't be rehabilitated. There ARE people who are just plain evil.<br /><br />However. Even the worst villians rarely have neon signs pointing them out. They look normal, they act normal. They have likes and dislikes and soft spots. Rarely are they Saddam Husseins who have no redeemable qualities. <br /><br />When I'm reading a novel, I want to be able to sympathize with the bad guy so he appears human and not some sort of Freddy Kruger. That doesn't mean that I have to see his human side in how he behaves in the present. He/she can be as evil and non-feeling as needed for the plot. <br /><br />But I at least want to know that there is a REASON for their evil nature. That they were abused as a child or were diagnosed as sociopaths early in their childhood when they started burning their pets alive at the age of 5. I want to see WHY the villian comes across as a singularly evil person...if I don't get to see the "nicer" side of them during the course of the book.<br /><br />Does that make sense? Villains. Hmm. Well, I don’t mind really, really bad villians who are unredeemable, because they exist in real life. There ARE people who are beyond help. There ARE people who can’t be rehabilitated. There ARE people who are just plain evil.

However. Even the worst villians rarely have neon signs pointing them out. They look normal, they act normal. They have likes and dislikes and soft spots. Rarely are they Saddam Husseins who have no redeemable qualities.

When I’m reading a novel, I want to be able to sympathize with the bad guy so he appears human and not some sort of Freddy Kruger. That doesn’t mean that I have to see his human side in how he behaves in the present. He/she can be as evil and non-feeling as needed for the plot.

But I at least want to know that there is a REASON for their evil nature. That they were abused as a child or were diagnosed as sociopaths early in their childhood when they started burning their pets alive at the age of 5. I want to see WHY the villian comes across as a singularly evil person…if I don’t get to see the “nicer” side of them during the course of the book.

Does that make sense?

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